#Soylent | Logs for 2014-03-22

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[00:23:10] <lhnn> Son of a bitch
[00:23:15] <lhnn> IT oncall is not fun
[00:24:55] <SirFinkus> anything on call isn't fun
[00:25:52] <xlefay> ^
[00:30:02] <lhnn> This is true
[00:32:01] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - First HipHop, Now Hack. Facebook Improves PHP - http://sylnt.us - another-day-another-language
[00:34:13] <lhnn> PHP stands for PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor
[00:34:27] <lhnn> #themoreyouknow #omgrly
[00:34:30] <lhnn> <_<
[00:34:52] <lhnn> IRC: the original user of hashtags for discussions
[00:35:05] <xlefay> ^
[00:46:01] <crutchy> bacon++
[00:46:02] <Bender> karma - bacon: 179
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[02:02:07] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Reed Hastings' Case For Strong Net Neutrality - http://sylnt.us - play-fair-or-I'll-send-you-all-to-bed
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[02:53:54] <SpallsHurgenson> is it just me, or do my socks smell like doritos?
[02:55:32] <xlefay> definitely smells
[02:57:22] <SpallsHurgenson> I shouldn't be getting hungry smelling my feet. that's wrong on so many levels.
[02:59:36] <SpallsHurgenson> I worry me, sometimes.
[02:59:59] <chromas> Next thing you'll be a hordcore advocate for pure open source everything
[03:02:10] <FoobarBazbot_> chromas, s/o/u/2
[03:02:10] <SedBot> <FoobarBazbot_> <chromas> Next thing you'll be a hurdcore advocate for pure open source everything
[03:04:58] <SpallsHurgenson> that was far too clever for the likes of me to understand all the many levels of humor involved
[03:40:21] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - How Can Software be Protected from Piracy ? - http://sylnt.us - questions-without-answers
[03:40:46] <SpallsHurgenson> easy! don't put it on a boat!
[03:40:55] * NCommander exhales
[03:42:42] <SpallsHurgenson> well, that's half of that breathing thing you've finally mastered
[03:42:51] <xlefay> !grab SpallsHurgenson
[03:42:51] <Bender> Added quote 57
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[03:55:13] * SpallsHurgenson sings "It's the eye of the tiger, the thrill of the fight, rising up to the challenge of our rival! And the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night and he's watching us aaaaalllll... with the eye of the tiger!"
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[04:12:04] <SpallsHurgenson> sssssssssssss
[04:14:25] <SpallsHurgenson> heheh, either I've turned into a snake or I was trying to back up in an FPS :)
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[04:22:29] <Subsentient> hmm'
[04:23:02] <Subsentient> I think I'll write a mini-polkit/consolekit substitute.
[04:23:33] <SpallsHurgenson> I thought you wrote polka and got all excited for a few seconds... then I realized my mistake and was sad
[04:23:48] <Subsentient> SpallsHurgenson: loll
[04:25:08] <SpallsHurgenson> I'm sure your mini-polkit will be nice too, I guess.
[04:26:14] * SpallsHurgenson has no idea what that is, of course
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[05:15:42] <SpallsHurgenson> I'm equally unsure of the point of giving voice in a channel where everyone can speak :)
[05:30:34] <chromas> I think it's also used to indicate status
[05:31:46] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Peter Sunde Running for European Parliament - http://sylnt.us - stand-by-for-boarding
[05:35:13] <SpallsHurgenson> hrmph; I'm not a copy; I'm a unique and precious snowflake :)
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[06:42:37] <Alberto> hello all
[06:42:42] <Alberto> crutchy, !
[06:45:23] <MrBluze> hello Alberto
[06:45:59] <Alberto> sup!
[06:46:06] <MrBluze> how u doin
[06:46:13] <Alberto> making an rbl
[06:46:22] <Alberto> for spanish/latin spammers
[06:46:23] <MrBluze> uhm, ok :)
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[07:41:23] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Comet-Chaser Rosetta's Instruments Come Alive - http://sylnt.us - still-going
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[09:22:14] <prospectacle> good day to all
[09:22:24] <prospectacle> and a happy weekend
[09:37:52] <Bender> [ksuhku] FYI: https://libreplanet.org (the FSF annual conference, with live video streams in a few hours)
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[09:46:16] <crutchy> looks like there could be TFA ideas in this video summary https://www.youtube.com
[09:51:01] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Pi Progressive Rock. Listen to the sound of Pi - http://sylnt.us - irrational-exuberance
[10:08:58] <prospectacle> apparently insufficient or irregular sleep can cause irreversible brain damage.
[10:09:29] <crutchy> i think i brained my damage
[10:10:11] <prospectacle> Yeah scary, I'm always getting insufficient sleep. Probably the TV I watch late at night instead of sleeping was already killing neurons.
[10:10:16] <prospectacle> I wonder how many I've got left
[10:10:27] * prospectacle wonders how much a neuron counter costs.
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[11:33:54] <MrBluze> baby brain
[11:34:33] <juggs> random
[11:35:04] <MrBluze> yes, from a sample size n = 1
[11:58:14] <prospectacle> babies have brains now?
[12:07:23] <MrBluze> not really
[12:07:46] <MrBluze> well actually .. 2 year olds have much the same mental capacity as adults, just no data to work from
[12:08:12] <MrBluze> but baby brain (in adults) is purely due to fatigue and recovers with sleep
[12:09:49] <Popeidol> and also babies
[12:10:47] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - FISC Judge Potentially Misled by Gov Lawyers - http://sylnt.us - Trust-but-Verify
[12:12:50] <prospectacle> MrBluze, I found it interesting that children were better at figuring out unfamiliar technological gadgets than adults. I guess it's like learning a language. If you're not already prejudiced to one way of doing things, you can learn a new one quicker.
[12:13:27] <MrBluze> it is interesting
[12:15:23] <MrBluze> brain capacity stays roughly static
[12:15:33] <MrBluze> until probably late middle age and it starts to rot
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[12:15:43] <MrBluze> hi FunPika
[12:15:55] <FunPika> hi
[12:15:58] <prospectacle> I also heard recently ( don't remember source), that forgetfullness in older people is mostly due to having too much stuff they know, and it takes longer to remember one thing clearly and not get it mixed up with other stuff.
[12:16:02] <MrBluze> prospectacle: but its the increasing volume of information stored in the brain that slows it down
[12:16:13] <prospectacle> MrBluze, that's it
[12:16:16] <MrBluze> yeah thats unproven but probably true
[12:16:30] <MrBluze> was tested using networks and stuff as a simulator
[12:16:49] <prospectacle> I mean physical decay would happen eventually no doubt, but interesting that knowing too much makes you effectively ( in terms of speed and mistakes) know less.
[12:17:12] <prospectacle> I wonder if there are ways to deal with it, like organisation and focus exercises
[12:17:56] <MrBluze> yes
[12:18:07] <MrBluze> well not know less, but recall is slower
[12:18:27] <MrBluze> brain exercises will change what is fast to recall and what is slow
[12:18:35] <MrBluze> that's heuristics / pattern recognition
[12:18:47] <prospectacle> Yeah not actually know less, but know less in practice, in terms of bringing the required thing to mind at the right time.
[12:18:51] <MrBluze> but capacity for that is not limitless and i think it is dynamic .. changes over time
[12:18:56] <prospectacle> True
[12:19:19] <prospectacle> I mean let's say a large organisation might have a million jobs its doing. Whether it gets buried under those jobs or thrives as a result, depends largely on organisation and focus.
[12:19:22] <MrBluze> i have done a bit of research on learning and skill acquisition - very interesting topic
[12:19:35] <prospectacle> Don't know if it would be the same for an individual's knowledge, but might be some relevance/analogous behaviour
[12:20:00] <prospectacle> MrBluze, what kind of research, if you don't mind me asking?
[12:20:03] <MrBluze> well in my setting, we ask why a young person has more knowledge, more skill but less ability
[12:20:30] <MrBluze> my one is in studying error making
[12:20:47] <MrBluze> most error studies are in fast paced scenarios
[12:20:57] <MrBluze> but the big errors are made in total peace and quiet
[12:21:34] <prospectacle> I can type very fast. My error rate depends on how much I emphasise accuracy over speed. If i do emphasise accuracy, my speed will increase anyway and I'll be more accurate. If I emphasise speed when I start (for the day, for example), I'll probably make lots of mistakes all day
[12:21:53] <MrBluze> oh, i am more into cognitive errors
[12:22:23] <prospectacle> I see. Well I make lots of those regardless. lol
[12:22:24] <MrBluze> like, gambler's fallacy, or rhyme-is-reason, or confirmation bias
[12:22:37] <MrBluze> things that lead people and organizations into trouble
[12:22:45] <MrBluze> all errors are a mismatch in perception vs. reality
[12:23:01] <prospectacle> hmm yeah. those are interesting. I often wonder how much of those are about habits, ie they're easy mistakes to make if you don't know about them, but if you do know abotu them, you can train yourself out of them.
[12:23:30] <prospectacle> gambler's fallacy, for example. completely understandable, but once it's explained once, you can catch yourself making it and break the habit.
[12:23:40] <MrBluze> well they are partly, and then there's a blind spot - which u cannot be aware of, and paradoxically if a person is made to pay attention to his blind spot, that error grows
[12:23:58] <MrBluze> hill-climbing error - a great one
[12:23:59] <prospectacle> lol, stupid people.
[12:24:06] <prospectacle> Can you give an example of the blind spot paradox
[12:24:10] <prospectacle> What's the hill-climbing error?
[12:24:11] <MrBluze> ok
[12:24:29] <MrBluze> hill-climbing: could even say we are in danger of it with this project
[12:24:59] <MrBluze> you climb a hill from the wrong side, and then at the very end you come to a cliff face ... something tells you you should go back down the mountain and climb the other side
[12:25:09] <MrBluze> but u climb the cliff-face stubbornly, and die
[12:25:31] <prospectacle> like "I've come this far", good money after bad, type thing?
[12:25:37] <MrBluze> it's the error that the more you buy into a path, .. yes
[12:26:07] <MrBluze> the value of one choice over another changes depending on the amount of work you have put into the choice
[12:26:10] <Bender> [ksuhku] "I'm not stubborn! but... resolute!"
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[12:26:24] <MrBluze> hi ksuhku
[12:26:24] <prospectacle> Yeah, if people learn to gamble rationally (like at cards), maybe they can apply these lessons to life.\
[12:26:39] <MrBluze> well thats the kind of thing i study in workplaces
[12:26:44] <Bender> [ksuhku] Hi MrBluze, interesting stuff
[12:26:44] <prospectacle> fascinating
[12:27:23] <MrBluze> but u see, older people are better at avoiding mistakes
[12:27:35] <MrBluze> yet their knowledge can be shown to be poor, and their reflexes slow
[12:28:17] <MrBluze> it's due to forming heuristics that over time prevent cognitive errors .. things that override gut feelings and perceptions
[12:28:23] <prospectacle> MrBluze, maybe common mistakes that aren't field-specific are easier to remember, and if you're old you've had longer to learn them.
[12:28:37] <MrBluze> but u can teach those heuristics - and save time
[12:29:20] <MrBluze> like.. if u see the latch up on the gate, the animals are probably stolen, so get your gun ready, because no farmer leaves the latch up
[12:30:20] <prospectacle> I don't get it. Is that a common mistake, or something to learn?
[12:30:51] <MrBluze> well
[12:31:00] <MrBluze> someone can solve that problem by thinking it through
[12:31:12] <MrBluze> most people go.. oh well, latch up .. saves me a step, and go through the gate
[12:31:29] <prospectacle> Ah I see
[12:31:37] <MrBluze> and the educated will go .. hmm latch up.. i remember something about that .. and start thinking of possibilities
[12:31:41] <MrBluze> but then be too slow to react
[12:31:54] <MrBluze> and the experienced will grab the gun and hide in the bushes
[12:32:21] <MrBluze> so.. many deaths are preceded with the words "hmm.. that's funny..."
[12:33:03] <Bender> [ksuhku] Hi MrBluze, have you ever studied marketing or magic, they're kinda related subjects to this
[12:33:10] <prospectacle> I think one could use gambling for good (for once). You can learn a lot by learning how not to lose too much. Most obvious is gambler's fallacy, but there's also good money after bad (hill problem), and there's also raising the stakes, where you keep doubling down cause when it finanly comes up red I'll get all my money back plus more. But of course that assumes infinite money to keep doubling with.
[12:33:14] <MrBluze> a little ksuhku
[12:33:32] <MrBluze> yes prospectacle
[12:33:36] <prospectacle> ksuhku magic is fascinating to me. It's all about knowing what people will notice and what they'll instinctively assume.
[12:33:59] <MrBluze> well my area is critical safety
[12:34:14] <prospectacle> s/instinctively/intuitively/
[12:34:14] <SedBot> <prospectacle> ksuhku magic is fascinating to me. It's all about knowing what people will notice and what they'll intuitively assume.
[12:34:16] <MrBluze> how to make humans as reliable as car parts .. 1 failure in 100,000 type of thing
[12:34:23] <MrBluze> or less for some components
[12:34:27] <prospectacle> MrBluze, for what kind of field?
[12:34:41] <Bender> [ksuhku] lol @sedbot!
[12:34:57] <MrBluze> lol
[12:35:05] <MrBluze> prospectacle: mainly health
[12:35:20] <MrBluze> but im drawing from other fields like aeronautics, engineering etc
[12:35:52] <MrBluze> health is the hardest one .. its so varied and difficult .. hard sometimes to know where to start
[12:37:00] <prospectacle> Too true. Sometimes I think software is complicated, then I read about something biological.
[12:38:40] <MrBluze> hardest thing about software is people
[12:39:13] <Bender> [ksuhku] making sense of apparent chaos
[12:40:17] <prospectacle> Yeah, good point. It's hard enough on the individual level, organising your mental resource effectively (how much to plan vs write, how much to test vs develop, refactor, etc, what blocks of time are best to spend in one go, to achieve maximum clarity). Now try to get two people to agree on something.
[12:41:41] <MrBluze> yep
[12:42:11] <MrBluze> so how do u get a bunch of creative types who are mathematically gifted and are therefore programmers .. to work together
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[12:42:26] <MrBluze> if u do it wrong, they fight and bicker, and u get a microsoft standard product
[12:42:33] <prospectacle> lol, yeah
[12:42:39] <Bender> [ksuhku] I think the famous "herding cats" analogy is brilliant
[12:42:47] <prospectacle> I often daydream abotu how I'll do it when I have my own company.
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[12:43:45] <prospectacle> My plan is: everyone works towards the same goal each week, separately. Then the best two or three entries (as judged by boss), get a monetary bonus. Best one is chosen as basis/starting point for next week's entry.
[12:44:07] <prospectacle> Might be crazy, but i reckon it would work.
[12:44:25] <crutchy> MrBluze: answer is simple... you pay them... shitloads
[12:44:31] <MrBluze> lol yes
[12:44:51] <MrBluze> well, the incident command thing that NC uses is about right for it
[12:45:08] <crutchy> sorry was watching youtube and looked over and saw your question and immediately thought... ooh i know the answer to that :-P
[12:45:08] <MrBluze> the point is, the worst thing for a pointy haired boss to do is tell people how to do their job
[12:45:21] <MrBluze> lol crutchy ;) u'd be right also
[12:46:29] <prospectacle> crutchy, that definitely would get them to want to work together. Now how do you get them to work together effectively?
[12:46:48] * crutchy looks back through conversation a bit... stumbles on comment about reliability of car parts
[12:46:54] <crutchy> car parts are designed to fail
[12:47:06] <crutchy> that's how the auto industry makes money
[12:47:44] <prospectacle> I know a guy who refused to make his consumer item fail sooner (They wanted it to only last two years, and it was too resilient in their tests), so the big chain who wanted to sell it wouldn't sell it.
[12:48:30] <MrBluze> crutchy: .. but in the 5 years of a car's life when the manufacturer pays, the service plan is designed to make sure there are no unexpected failures
[12:49:21] <MrBluze> after that they of course still know the failure rate but dont care ;)
[12:49:48] <crutchy> and then after the warranty runs out... bang! ...fuckers
[12:49:48] <prospectacle> MrBluze, yeah they don't want it to fail in less than five years, but for every day it lasts beyond that they're giving away free shit, as far as they're concerned.
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[12:51:43] <MrBluze> yep
[12:52:15] <MrBluze> but anyway my hope is to make the human safety systems as fool-proof as possible, so we save money -> get better wages
[12:52:25] <prospectacle> sweet
[12:52:38] <crutchy> problem is growth
[12:52:43] <prospectacle> I think you can do it.
[12:52:50] <crutchy> growth must be sustained
[12:52:55] <crutchy> or the system fails
[12:53:09] <prospectacle> My job is about seeing injuries before they happen. It's suprising what you can know with enough data over time.
[12:53:38] <crutchy> are you a fortune teller?
[12:53:47] <prospectacle> crutchy, yeah that's just the monetary system. It's pretty dumb (but could be worse). Hopefully they'll fix it one day.
[12:54:12] <prospectacle> crutchy, yep, totally: you will have an exciting new opportunity.
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[12:54:33] <crutchy> opportunity to eat another frosty fruit i think... wow where do i send money?
[12:54:42] <prospectacle> first one is free
[12:55:58] <prospectacle> also second one is free to the first ten thousand customers: You sometimes feel misunderstood by those you communicate with most often.
[12:56:17] <prospectacle> oh wait that's predicting the present. Nevermind.
[12:58:23] <MrBluze> lol
[12:58:28] <MrBluze> what area r u in prospectacle?
[12:58:47] <crutchy> i wouldn't use that as a marketing gimmick
[12:59:25] <MrBluze> ugh i gtg to bed
[12:59:29] <MrBluze> im exhausted
[12:59:34] <prospectacle> MrBluze, measuring physical exercises, etc
[12:59:44] <prospectacle> Ok have a good rest of your weekend
[12:59:55] <MrBluze> oh not hugely different to me lol
[12:59:57] <MrBluze> ok see u
[12:59:59] <MrBluze> cya crutchy
[13:01:01] <crutchy> cya mrbluze
[13:01:11] <crutchy> not far away for me too
[13:01:52] <prospectacle> Yeah I should theoretically sleep. Got to clean entire house tomorrow. But I've got internets to see to.
[13:02:21] <prospectacle> Got any fun plans for rest of weekend crutchy?
[13:02:33] <crutchy> re getting people to work together... strong leadership i've found
[13:03:08] <crutchy> even a shitty team can work with half decent leader
[13:03:35] <crutchy> an awesome team can fail with a shit leader
[13:03:59] <prospectacle> crutchy. that's probably true. I also think good procedures are important. Good people (and leaders) can be crushed by bad processes and structures.
[13:04:27] <crutchy> as long as they don't restrict the leader from leading
[13:04:38] <prospectacle> I think the bigger the organisation, the more important procedures become and the less important leadership personality become
[13:05:02] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes definitely.
[13:05:15] <crutchy> a leader that falls back to procedures isn't necessarily a good leader either
[13:05:27] <crutchy> good leaders improve procedures
[13:05:56] <crutchy> with the help of their team of course
[13:06:22] <prospectacle> yes, that's true, there's always room for discretion in how procedures are applied and enanced, even if they can't be broken as such.
[13:06:22] <crutchy> in the course of being awesome
[13:07:37] <prospectacle> It sure is a hard problem, no wonder so many buzzword heavy books are written about it. People in middle and upper management are probably starving for good answers
[13:07:37] * MrBluze nods at crutchy
[13:07:42] <MrBluze> ok im off to bed
[13:07:47] <crutchy> cya matey
[13:08:00] <prospectacle> ok bye
[13:08:24] <crutchy> prospectacle... ever heard of the dilbert principle?
[13:08:37] <prospectacle> yeah, it's scary how much sense it makes
[13:08:47] <crutchy> i love it
[13:09:35] <crutchy> i'll probably keep looking for new jobs whenever i get anywhere near a management role
[13:09:52] <crutchy> best way to avoid working with dipshits
[13:09:58] <prospectacle> seems like a lot of people train for one thing, and then eventually get asked to manage a team of people do that same thing, but they never get trained to manage.
[13:10:43] <crutchy> probably, but i'm sure there are also a bunch of clueless morons who are promoted merely to get them out of the everyday workflow
[13:10:48] <prospectacle> I have this problem. I'm meant to start managing a couple of other people, but also do all my own work as well, which is often urgent and requires concentration.
[13:11:55] <crutchy> management is about dealing with people, not problems
[13:11:59] <crutchy> i like solving problems
[13:12:08] <crutchy> and people are c*n*s
[13:12:17] <prospectacle> I think I would be just about ok to learn as I went, if I could manage full time, but if I have to think clearly and deeply about other stuff, I just procrastinate dealing with other poeple's work to focus on my own.
[13:12:42] <prospectacle> Yeah people are the worst
[13:13:00] <crutchy> individuals are ok... it's just when you get to that plural
[13:14:18] <prospectacle> Yeah I agree. It takes some skill to deal with two people at once, it takes an artist to deal with ten people.
[13:14:30] <prospectacle> I guess that's why good managers make so much money. They multiply everyone else's productivity.
[13:15:04] <crutchy> i guess it depends on how much money you wanna make too... unless you have "manager" in your title (or you're a shiftworker) you're generally limited in earning capacity
[13:15:47] <prospectacle> yes
[13:16:27] <prospectacle> I wanna make money like the minecraft or dwarf fortress guy. Get individuals to send me money for an one-man project.
[13:16:52] <prospectacle> Then there is no ceiling, but you don't have to bring a whole team along with you for every decision.
[13:18:56] <crutchy> i guess if you can get into the mind of a mindless consumer to figure out "the next big thing"... you can always get rich quick or die trying
[13:19:46] <crutchy> but if you can do that you might as well play poker
[13:19:56] <crutchy> much easier
[13:20:26] <crutchy> and you don't have to deal with the filth of the consumer mind
[13:20:27] <prospectacle> ha, yeah.
[13:20:40] <prospectacle> I don't want to do the next big thing, just a medium thing. e.g I'd rather have a thousand happy customers than a billion annoyed ones (like facebook, microsoft).
[13:21:07] <crutchy> that's the problem with consumers though... they are by definition never happy
[13:21:12] <crutchy> they must consume
[13:21:21] <crutchy> forever
[13:21:36] <prospectacle> I guess so. But some things are better. I mean if your prices are reasonable, and your restrictions are few, people won't complain so much.
[13:22:08] <crutchy> you starting to sound like a decent small business owner there
[13:22:32] <crutchy> ready to be trampled on by big greedy corporation
[13:22:32] <prospectacle> I mean at one extreme, if you "pay what you want" you don't complain abotu value for money. On the other extreme if you're forced to upgrade cause everyone else is, and you have to pay $200, you'll complain about every little problem
[13:22:41] <prospectacle> lol, yeah, I can't wait.
[13:23:53] <prospectacle> It's not exactly mainstream, but there seem to be plenty of examples recently of people charging low amounts, having no copy restrictions, no marketing, and making a decent living (or more).
[13:24:22] <prospectacle> also there's kickstarter, which is pretty sweet. Money up front if you can make a good demo
[13:25:32] <prospectacle> Anyway I can dream
[13:25:40] <crutchy> competition is at the very heart of the human condition... that's why capitalism works so well. unfortunately greed is also at the very heart of the human condition, so welathy connected individuals or groups like to use the coercive abilities of governments to corrupt healthy competition
[13:26:23] <crutchy> i've wanted to start a business for a long time, but i'm not driven enough to put up with all the crap
[13:26:52] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's very true. There are some checks in place (voting), but there are also inventions which exacerbate the problem (e.g. for-profit limited-liability joing-stock companies)
[13:27:03] <crutchy> nowdays you have to really want to run a business (moreso than make a lot of money) cos if you're just in it for the money you're likely to fail
[13:27:29] <prospectacle> crutchy. I know how you feel. But these days you can just sell to people directly if you have a software product. I mean online. Then you can just declare it in your taxes, and later set up an ABN if necessary.
[13:27:49] <prospectacle> Or you can take donations
[13:28:02] <crutchy> i like not-for-profit cooperative model that competes like any other corporation
[13:28:18] <prospectacle> yeah me too
[13:28:20] <crutchy> can at least leverage consumer sentiment
[13:28:34] <crutchy> (or ignorance)
[13:28:44] <prospectacle> works well for software cause any good products can be multiplied infinitely
[13:29:07] <crutchy> i like to think of anything where the competition is hated
[13:29:07] <prospectacle> wiki media for e.g.
[13:29:17] <crutchy> like a bank or insurance company
[13:29:36] <prospectacle> yes. stupid banks
[13:30:41] <crutchy> "do you like seeing your bank making billions in annual profits from your hard earned savings and interest paid? why not put your trust in a bank that is non-profit and share in the rewards?"
[13:31:21] <prospectacle> Yeah credit unions are good. I also like the clubs culture in Aus. People are friendlier and members clubs than at bars, also there's more room
[13:31:21] <prospectacle> also cheaper drinks
[13:32:27] <crutchy> problem is they don't seem to market themselves in that way (to take advantage of what makes them different)
[13:32:44] <crutchy> they need to drum it into people better
[13:33:43] <prospectacle> Yeah. i think limited liability is a problem. Imagine if it were only granted to non-profits. That would be something.
[13:33:50] <crutchy> NAB, CBA, Westpac & ANZ make shitloads in profit... from you! [Insert Credit Union Here] doesn't!
[13:33:53] <prospectacle> Corporations can do whatever they want, the most the shareholders have to lose is the price of the share, so what do they care.
[13:34:52] <crutchy> Limited liability is OK. Without it there would be no business
[13:35:15] <prospectacle> I disagree, it's a much more recent invention than business.
[13:35:25] <prospectacle> there would be individual business people. Probably no massive corps
[13:35:49] <crutchy> maybe
[13:36:08] <crutchy> i like anything that doesn't involve government preferential treatment
[13:36:16] <crutchy> or subsidies
[13:37:30] <prospectacle> yeah. Subsidies are dumb. They should either have a govt-owned option, or let it suffer the market conditions. Subsidies is just paying one party to employ another party. Just pay the workers directly if you care so much.
[13:38:12] <crutchy> big corps only generally get big due to help from government.,.. if companies (even limited liability) are left to compete on their merits, it would be much harder to monopolise any industry
[13:39:25] <crutchy> problem with anything to do with government is the coercive aspect... even walmart can't force you to buy their products, but government can (and does)
[13:39:57] <prospectacle> it's a dangerous entity, but necessary I think.
[13:40:15] <crutchy> limited government is necessary
[13:40:28] <crutchy> even if it were destroyed it would naturally form again anyway
[13:40:30] <prospectacle> gotta coerce some people or they'll just rule make gangs to rule their neighbourhood with a less democratic government
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[13:40:40] <prospectacle> yes, it would
[13:41:24] <prospectacle> Difficulty, of course, is what's "necessary"
[13:41:52] <crutchy> i don't see much difference in "democratic" governments of today and gangs
[13:42:05] <crutchy> most elections are a joke
[13:42:13] <prospectacle> A lot of measures seem to be compromises that nobody is happy with. E.g. subsidies. Probably only the companies receiving the subisidies think that waa the best option. Other people would either say "let them live or die on their own" and others would say "buy the company and run it as a public asset"
[13:42:24] <crutchy> you only "elect" from a limited list
[13:42:57] <crutchy> the latter are wrong
[13:43:52] <crutchy> if a government buys out a private corporation to prevent it from failing, it will only delay the failure because the government is unlikely to change anything that lead to the impending failure in the first place
[13:43:59] <prospectacle> whichever is the right way, it seems like subsidies are the worst of both worlds. Lots of public cost with no clear public benefit
[13:44:09] <crutchy> agree
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[13:46:06] <prospectacle> Minimum wage is another example. Some people want a cost of living allowance, others want no minimum wage. They could both, in fact, have their way, but minimum wage means neither get their way.
[13:46:47] <crutchy> i agree with peter schiff on minimum wage... it hurts those it intends to help
[13:46:51] <prospectacle> I guess those are two extreme views, and probably wouldn't agree to the other camp's measure even if it meant they got their own measure. Hence the compromise.
[13:47:59] <prospectacle> If there was a minimum income, then businesses could pay $1 an hour and no one would be poor who took the job.
[13:48:14] <prospectacle> Of course that would never pass, people would be scared of it
[13:49:11] <crutchy> a job that pays $1/hr will always be better than no job at all... problem is that most who argue for a minimum wage overlook the intangible benefits of having a job regardless of what it pays
[13:49:51] <crutchy> even volunteering is better than not having a job at all
[13:50:22] <crutchy> try explaining the benefits of volunteering to a minimum wage advocate and you'' get blank stares
[13:50:32] <prospectacle> Yeah. Poverty and low-wages are two separate things. Minimum wage is just an attempt to solve one by addressing the other.
[13:51:18] <crutchy> low wages aren't a problem
[13:51:24] <crutchy> high cost of living is the problem
[13:51:36] <crutchy> $1/hr was a lot of money once upon a time
[13:51:47] <prospectacle> well it's relative. wages can be measured according to purchasing power and cost of living.
[13:52:08] <prospectacle> by "low wages" I mean relative to cost of living.
[13:52:16] <crutchy> and even that is relative
[13:52:41] <crutchy> cost of living for you, me and the POTUS are likely to be completely different
[13:53:00] <crutchy> depends on standard of living
[13:53:41] <crutchy> but also depends a lot on inflation
[13:53:57] <crutchy> and dickheads running our central banks
[13:53:59] <prospectacle> The way I see it, poeple get police protection however much money they earn or taxes they pay. They get medical treatment as well. Education, etc. That's because this makes a better, wealthier society for all, even those who pay all the taxes (some would argue especially those people, since they are profiting the most from such a society)
[13:54:34] <prospectacle> So peopl should be protected from poverty, no matter how much they earn or taxes they pay. Wages are a separate issue to this, and not the solution to poverty
[13:55:23] <crutchy> problem is that's all fine and well intentioned, but when administred by the force of government rarely works out that way
[13:55:37] <crutchy> all government programs start out with the best intentions
[13:56:38] <prospectacle> True it's imperfect and needs much improvement, but what's the alternative. poor people don't get police protection? don't get education or healthcare. Imagine how the general costs of living woudl rise fore veryone then (private security everywhere you go, private hospitals exclusively)
[13:56:53] <crutchy> i'm a public healthcare recipient in australia, so i can't really complain about healthcare, but i would actually be really curious about what would happen to healthcare in australia if the government removed itself from the equation altogether
[13:57:08] <crutchy> completely
[13:57:24] <crutchy> maybe gradually to avoid shock to the system
[13:57:50] <prospectacle> crutchy. you'd be at the mercy of insurance companies, basically
[13:58:00] <prospectacle> Government just runs a big health insurance that's not for profit
[13:58:02] <crutchy> i think a lot of new entities would rise to fill the gap
[13:58:12] <crutchy> no i think that's the illusion
[13:58:21] <crutchy> government healthcare is definitely for profit
[13:58:27] <prospectacle> whos profit?
[13:58:38] <crutchy> just not for profit for taxpayers
[13:58:49] <crutchy> for lobbyist corporations
[13:59:04] <crutchy> those who have the ears of our politicians
[13:59:20] <prospectacle> crutchy. Let's imagine a non-government, non-profit health insurance company.
[13:59:30] <prospectacle> sorry I don't know why I keep mentioning your name, we're the only ones here
[13:59:31] <crutchy> ok
[13:59:35] <crutchy> lol
[13:59:36] <crutchy> :-P
[13:59:46] <prospectacle> anyway, how are their board of directors elected, and are they immune from lobbying/corruption?
[14:00:00] <crutchy> they're not
[14:00:11] <crutchy> they would be elected like any other board
[14:00:25] <crutchy> they would be as corruptible as anyone
[14:01:05] <prospectacle> would they be any better than a government, which is nominally not for profit, and elected by all "members" (voters)
[14:01:26] <crutchy> they would be better. you know why? one simple truth... they can't coerce
[14:01:37] <crutchy> if they are too expensive, they will go out of business
[14:01:44] <crutchy> cosumers will vote with their wallets
[14:01:53] <crutchy> and that is the best voting system
[14:02:03] <crutchy> better than any government election
[14:02:05] <prospectacle> Why can't they co-erce? I mean who will stop them?
[14:02:13] <crutchy> consumers
[14:02:28] <crutchy> no private organisation can force consumers to buy their shiut
[14:02:40] <crutchy> as long as there is competition
[14:03:13] <prospectacle> Can't they just muscle out the competition? I mean whoever is the dominant player in an area.
[14:03:27] <crutchy> who says the competition can't muscle them out?
[14:03:31] <crutchy> where do they get the muscle
[14:03:33] <crutchy> ?
[14:03:44] <prospectacle> where to any corporations get muscle, they hire them
[14:03:48] <crutchy> no
[14:03:51] <prospectacle> for profit or not
[14:03:56] <crutchy> they hire government
[14:04:09] <prospectacle> But let's remove govt as much as possible.
[14:04:15] <crutchy> corporate monopoly is a result of government intervention
[14:04:34] <prospectacle> So they hire sales and security people who just happen to vandalise a small upstart competitor. No one can prove it, though, but they know
[14:04:36] <crutchy> without government intervention, corporate monopoly goes away
[14:05:25] <prospectacle> IF someone is dominant (not a monopoly) and decide to use dirty tricks, lies and sometimes outright vandalism and violence ot supress upstart competitors, how do you stop them?
[14:05:28] <crutchy> but then a bunch of little guys just get together and give the other big guy a taste of their own medicine, and also if consumers get wind the big guy will likely lose customers
[14:05:50] <crutchy> how do you think coles and woolies got so big?
[14:05:59] <crutchy> not on their own
[14:06:47] <crutchy> bribery is hard because it will always happen
[14:07:06] <crutchy> i guess the only thing you can do is limit its scope and extent of damage
[14:07:29] <crutchy> try to prevent it at the federal level so that at worst it becomes a state problem
[14:07:35] <prospectacle> So imagine there was no government, wouldn't one company (maybe for good reason), get much bigger in some areas, than all others in that field?
[14:07:43] <crutchy> no
[14:08:08] <prospectacle> what would stop them? I mean isn't competition based on better services/prices making more money?
[14:08:09] <crutchy> other companies would come along, copy what the first company was doing, and sell it cheaper due to lack of R&D outlay
[14:08:50] <crutchy> competition is the great leveler
[14:09:36] <prospectacle> copying is not always cheap, easy or even possible. There is, firstly, accumulated expertise, secondly trade secrets, thirdly, brand recognition and loyalty, fourth, economies of scale.
[14:10:02] <prospectacle> often the first-mover has a great advantage, and has an established business (at least locally) and great financial advantage before anyone can get started.
[14:10:27] <crutchy> maybe, but if that were true government wouldn't be necessary to get big
[14:10:39] <prospectacle> and it's not
[14:10:50] <crutchy> there are only a couple of companies that have monopilsed industries without government intervention... in history
[14:11:37] <crutchy> https://www.youtube.com
[14:11:42] <prospectacle> that's because companies as we know them are inventions of government (ie of law), outside of that model, the equivalent of a company is a gang, army or empire, whcih if it dominates, becomes the government.
[14:12:14] <crutchy> milton friedman... smart man
[14:12:22] <crutchy> see video
[14:12:25] <prospectacle> thanks i'll watch it
[14:14:02] -!- FuckBeta [FuckBeta!~2ef62cfb@46.246.vy.nni] has joined #Soylent
[14:14:33] <FuckBeta> NCommander: how about allowing beta.soylentnews.org to point to dev.soylentnews.org?
[14:14:43] <prospectacle> I disagree, allowing more free international competition doesn't solve the problem, it just enlarges the playing field on which the same problem would occur.
[14:15:25] <prospectacle> For any organisations that compete, some will inevitably get bigger than others. This won't be permanent. Some smaller companies might gang up on the big one, and often they'll merge and become the new big one. Things will change but most of the time you'll have long periods of one dominating
[14:16:09] <prospectacle> A dominant organisation has substantial ability to abuse its position, and stifle competition.
[14:16:13] <crutchy> milton friedman mentions 2 monopolies that he could think of that have come to be without government... can you think of any others?
[14:16:14] <prospectacle> without government help
[14:16:17] <NCommander> FuckBeta, dev is used for dev work and n ot a production db
[14:16:57] <crutchy> what friedman says is that the dominant organisation you mention only comes to be dominant because of government
[14:17:02] <prospectacle> crutchy, governments themselves are naturally forming monopolies, resulting in a long history of competing organisations. Where else do you think they came from?
[14:17:06] <crutchy> without government, there would be do dominance
[14:17:23] <crutchy> government is a monopoly
[14:17:33] <prospectacle> crutchy yes, and where did it come from?
[14:17:37] <crutchy> that's why it shouldn't involve itself in other markets
[14:17:49] <prospectacle> not thin air. Not universal agreement. It came by out-competing other organisations in the area.
[14:18:14] <prospectacle> This will happen at every level or organisational competition, unless there are rules imposed to stop it.
[14:18:18] <crutchy> it came from natural human desire for community
[14:18:42] <crutchy> humans don't naturally form market monopolies
[14:19:02] <crutchy> microsoft wasn't a function of natural human tendencies
[14:19:22] <crutchy> it was a function of government authority over microsoft's competitors
[14:19:45] <prospectacle> can you be more specific. Pick a government, any government, and tell me how and when it arose from the natural human desire for community?
[14:19:55] <crutchy> through things like patents and copyrights
[14:20:07] <crutchy> local government
[14:20:17] <crutchy> everything starts small
[14:20:21] <crutchy> look at history
[14:20:25] <crutchy> tribe formation
[14:20:48] <prospectacle> yes, do look at history. They start out small, then what happens. Do they voluntarily vote to join larger organisations, or are they conquered by the sword?
[14:20:53] <crutchy> even lion packs have an alpha lion... or government figure
[14:21:21] <prospectacle> Yes, through violence
[14:21:39] <crutchy> what government formed through violence?
[14:21:53] <prospectacle> All of them. Pick any one and I'll tell you specifically.
[14:21:55] FoobarBazbot is now known as FoobarBazbot|afk
[14:22:08] <crutchy> how about the US government?
[14:22:38] <crutchy> it's the one that most associate with violence
[14:22:43] <prospectacle> they decides to break away from an existing government (the british empire) and took up arms to do so. Later some states wanted to leave the union, and they had another war to stop them.
[14:23:05] <prospectacle> I could go back further and explain how the british government arose from violence (kings, etc), if you like
[14:23:59] <crutchy> yes, but on a basic level people want the protection and belonging of a community
[14:24:09] <Bender> [ksuhku] Join us now and share the software: https://libreplanet.org
[14:24:27] <Bender> [ksuhku] (fsf annual conference, live steams go up in 15 minutes)
[14:24:55] <prospectacle> yes, and the current ones (nation-state governments) got to where they were through war with competitors who also wanted to have that piece of land.
[14:25:36] <prospectacle> Governments might be administered via democracy, but they were not formed that way (historically), they were formed by violent competition for resources.
[14:25:36] <crutchy> but without agreement and peace where would we be?
[14:26:01] <crutchy> they aren't administered via democracy
[14:26:11] <prospectacle> crutchy, agreement and peace are great. they're what we should aim for. They're just not how today's governments were originally formed.
[14:26:33] <crutchy> there would be no governments at all without agreements and peace
[14:27:07] <crutchy> agreements and peace are prerequisites for a stable government
[14:27:13] <prospectacle> crutchy, that's true, and nor would there be the governments we have today, if they hadn't fought off, physically and violently, their many competitors.
[14:27:56] <crutchy> but why were their competitors faught off? it sure as hell wasn't so they could have an xbox
[14:28:27] <crutchy> the type of competition you're talking about is different to market competition
[14:28:33] <crutchy> \which is about free will of consumers
[14:28:39] <prospectacle> the reasons are always different, and yet always boil down to the fact that one organisation wants to be in power in one area, and will fight others who also want that power.
[14:29:24] <crutchy> the only way company A can win against company B in a competitive marketplace without government intervention is to win over customers
[14:29:26] <prospectacle> crutchy, the free will of consumers only works because of laws made by government. Without those, your money, freedom, property wouldn't be protected. who would protect them?
[14:29:45] <prospectacle> crutchy, if government doesn't intervene, they could use violence as well.
[14:29:59] <crutchy> trade and barter predates government regulation
[14:30:18] <prospectacle> can you give an example of trade without government?
[14:30:49] <prospectacle> when tribes traded, it was with the understanding that if people didn't play fair, there could be repercussions of a violent nature
[14:31:05] <crutchy> my neighbour agrees to look after my kids for an hour. in return i agree to mow his/her lawn
[14:31:57] <crutchy> but traders with reputations for dishonesty go out of business without government intervention
[14:31:59] <prospectacle> crutchy, without government, you could just steal the lawnmower, and they would know this to be the case. so why would they agree?
[14:32:11] <crutchy> they still have to mow their lawn
[14:32:19] <crutchy> the deal wasn't about the lawnmover
[14:32:27] <prospectacle> whos lawnmower is it?
[14:32:32] <crutchy> i could mow the lawn with chemicals
[14:32:46] <crutchy> is was a trade of effort
[14:33:13] * NCommander waves
[14:33:19] <crutchy> hi ncommander
[14:33:20] <prospectacle> hi NCommander
[14:33:22] * NCommander could use a hug
[14:33:32] <crutchy> nah that would be kinda gay
[14:33:38] <NCommander> ...
[14:33:42] <NCommander> !grab crutchy
[14:33:42] <Bender> Added quote 58
[14:33:43] <crutchy> not that there's anything wrong with that
[14:33:44] * prospectacle hugs NCommander
[14:33:50] * NCommander hugs prospectacle
[14:33:55] <prospectacle> ncommander++
[14:33:55] <Bender> karma - ncommander: 16
[14:33:57] <NCommander> The site seems dead
[14:33:59] <prospectacle> rough day at the office?
[14:34:10] <NCommander> prospectacle, need to make up a day at the office
[14:34:15] <NCommander> (RL office that is)
[14:34:17] <prospectacle> it's the midnight shift.
[14:34:21] <prospectacle> also weekend
[14:34:29] <NCommander> We're out of submissions
[14:34:31] <crutchy> i been in that boat too ncommander
[14:34:38] <crutchy> only for past 2 weeks though
[14:34:47] * NCommander is worried SN is dying ...
[14:34:56] <crutchy> you worry too much
[14:34:57] <NCommander> I do have the start of a vision statement though
[14:35:27] <crutchy> "SN is all about... shit i need glasses otherwise my vision is shot to shit"
[14:35:54] <crutchy> vision statements are a wank
[14:35:59] <NCommander> crutchy, prospectacle: http://paste.ubuntu.com
[14:36:39] <prospectacle> Well I mean, there's always a possibility any site will die, but I personally read it regularly cause it has interesting stories.
[14:37:08] <crutchy> vision statements are for people who are subject to the dilbert principle
[14:37:21] <crutchy> you're a code junky right nc?
[14:37:36] <crutchy> wtf are you concerning yourself with a vision statement for?
[14:37:37] <NCommander> crutchy, to an extent. I am planning to write a soylent manifesto
[14:37:58] <NCommander> This was actually based on an email on staff on how we plan to incorperate
[14:38:08] <crutchy> fair enough
[14:38:22] <crutchy> seemskinda over the top to me
[14:38:28] <NCommander> crutchy, its how I write :-)
[14:38:34] <crutchy> i'm just a code junky though
[14:38:47] <crutchy> nah i didn't mean your link piece
[14:38:47] * prospectacle is reading
[14:38:49] <crutchy> :-)
[14:38:54] <NCommander> crutchy, gah
[14:38:57] * NCommander beats crutchy
[14:39:32] <crutchy> i'm not a perl code junky
[14:39:58] <crutchy> if i were i'd just code perl and let the politics go on in the background
[14:40:32] <prospectacle> NCommander, I stumbled across SN and was surprised how much I cared about and got interested in it. So I care very much about this vision statement and its vision.
[14:40:41] * NCommander notes we've just one bug away from letting people use SSL full time
[14:41:01] <prospectacle> So please bear that in midn when I say: I think the contents and arguments are good, but it could some better organisation.
[14:41:02] <NCommander> ^- part of last nights maintence, but its not working so not announced, yet
[14:41:13] <crutchy> that's ok
[14:41:22] <NCommander> prospectacle, the doc or in general?
[14:41:24] <crutchy> i've had no problems so can't be all that bad
[14:41:29] <prospectacle> NCommander, the doc
[14:41:42] <NCommander> crutchy, the problem is when you log in, you get redirected to http. If you go back to https, the cookies DID get set
[14:41:43] <crutchy> i didn't read it
[14:41:52] <prospectacle> NCommander, I mean, articles about the site itself get the most comments, so people obviously care.
[14:41:53] <crutchy> ^ not enough if statements
[14:42:01] <crutchy> or glbal vaeriables :-P
[14:42:10] <crutchy> s/glbal/global/
[14:42:10] <SedBot> <crutchy> or global vaeriables :-P
[14:42:17] <NCommander> crutchy, if you want to see horrorifyig, you should look at Environment.pm
[14:42:18] <crutchy> fuck me i can't type
[14:42:31] <crutchy> yeah i saw that
[14:42:37] <prospectacle> NCommander, and poeple have lots of questions, no doubt. Perhaps the article could start with a brief plain-english list of contents (a lot of poeple won't knkow what a 503 means), then go into details arguments. Then people can skip tot he bit they care about.
[14:42:38] <crutchy> was written by a chinese guy eh?
[14:42:45] <prospectacle> Just my opinion.
[14:42:48] <crutchy> couldn't understand a word of it
[14:42:50] <NCommander> prospectacle, good idea++
[14:43:10] <NCommander> crutchy, well, I did something you're in theory supposed to do with application but no one ever does
[14:43:15] * NCommander write AppArmor profiles)
[14:43:33] <prospectacle> brb
[14:43:35] <crutchy> never heard of that, so i must suck
[14:43:59] <NCommander> crutchy, basically SELinux but managable by normal users
[14:44:11] <NCommander> crutchy, http://paste.ubuntu.com - I used it to lock Apache down to these specific permissions
[14:44:17] <NCommander> (its pretty self explainitory)
[14:44:18] <crutchy> i'm just an engimineer though... not a real programmerer
[14:44:43] <crutchy> programming to me is just another tool
[14:45:03] <NCommander> crutchy, you won't know anything about LDAP would you?
[14:45:19] <crutchy> nah
[14:45:23] <crutchy> just another acronym
[14:45:33] <crutchy> i kinda understood the pastebin
[14:45:41] <crutchy> like linux directory permissions
[14:45:43] <juggs> AppArmor++
[14:45:43] <Bender> karma - apparmor: 1
[14:46:11] <crutchy> sorry... linux filesystem permissions
[14:46:14] <NCommander> crutchy, yeah
[14:46:17] <NCommander> THe only odd one is "ix"
[14:46:23] <NCommander> Which means inhert executable
[14:46:28] <crutchy> i guess x is executable
[14:46:29] <NCommander> (run with the same permissions as the parent)
[14:46:31] <crutchy> i?
[14:46:34] <crutchy> ah
[14:46:36] <NCommander> Its "ix" not x
[14:46:50] <crutchy> mkay
[14:47:06] <crutchy> i keep all my code off public directories altogether
[14:47:27] <crutchy> just include a dispatcher from a public index file
[14:47:49] <crutchy> but that's self hosted
[14:47:56] <crutchy> bit harder on shared
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[14:48:44] <juggs> NCommander, what do those "^DEFAULT_URI" and "^HANDLING_UNTRUSTED_INPUT" empty stanza do in your apparmor profile?
[14:49:18] <crutchy> only time i ever got specific about directory permission was private key dir for ssl
[14:49:33] <NCommander> juggs, they're for mod_apparmor
[14:49:36] <NCommander> which we can't use
[14:49:45] <juggs> ah OK
[14:49:46] <juggs> thanks
[14:50:31] <crutchy> my paranoia is saved for vhost conf, php.ini, hosts.allow/deny, etc
[14:50:38] <juggs> makes a firefox apparmor profile look hideously complex. seems to want to have it's tentacles all over the place
[14:50:48] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Turkish Citizens Fight Twitter Ban - http://sylnt.us - 208.67.222.222
[14:51:16] <crutchy> and of course my good friend iptables
[14:51:30] <crutchy> not related to bobby tables
[14:51:32] <crutchy> :-P
[14:51:43] <prospectacle> NCommander: I'll do a very rough reorder of your stuff to show you what I mean, if that will be in any way useful.
[14:53:32] <NCommander> prospectacle, thanks
[15:03:56] <crutchy> bed time for me
[15:04:00] <crutchy> 1am
[15:04:03] <crutchy> nighty night
[15:08:56] <prospectacle> http://paste.ubuntu.com
[15:15:33] -!- FuckBeta has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
[15:15:55] <crutchy> ncommander: if you're worried about TFA, i could always chuck in a couple of things from the vsauce youtube channel
[15:16:04] <crutchy> full of nerdy goodness
[15:16:24] <crutchy> check out https://www.youtube.com
[15:17:41] <crutchy> or something about baking an iphone in a cake or running over an xbox one with a car
[15:18:17] <crutchy> i never know what sorts of things to post, but then i don't come to soylent for TFA (never went to /. for TFA either)
[15:18:26] <crutchy> TFA is just a talking point to me
[15:18:41] <crutchy> could be about talking elephants for all i care
[15:19:10] <crutchy> as long as the elephants are on fire... flame is always fun :-P
[15:19:25] <prospectacle> crutchy, yes, they're good launching points for discussion
[15:19:48] <prospectacle> It's almost more important that it raises something people want to discuss than that the article itself is good or important.
[15:20:05] <prospectacle> NCommander, sorry should have put your name. That pastebin above was for you.
[15:20:34] <crutchy> seems like the SN editors are a bit more interested in content... i suck at content, so i don't submit
[15:20:58] <crutchy> i think i've submitted twice maybe
[15:21:29] <prospectacle> crutchy, submit away, what's the worst that could happen? It's the editors job to accept or clean up a submissions.
[15:21:30] <prospectacle> Sounds like the site needs the input anyway. If you've got things you find interesting, aand want to discuss, don't hold back.
[15:21:54] <crutchy> yeah i guess
[15:22:09] <prospectacle> Our argument before about monopolies/regulation could be good re: tech industry, maybe you can find something in the news about it.
[15:23:10] <prospectacle> Anyway I don't care if you do or don't, but probably a lot of the stuf you want to submit would be good to discuss
[15:26:30] <prospectacle> Wow that drink your face thing on vcause is cool. How do they do that?
[15:26:37] <prospectacle> vsauce
[15:28:54] <NCommander> prospectacle, thanks
[15:29:45] * NCommander swears repeatively
[15:29:48] <NCommander> Fuck. LDAP.
[15:33:04] <prospectacle> lol
[15:33:14] <prospectacle> anyway, in general, good vision that I agree with.
[15:33:34] <mattie_p> hey, folks
[15:34:04] <prospectacle> I will stick around. And remember, if you've got a site with regular updates, people will come, and if things make progress, more people will come. It doesn't matter if it dies down sometimes in the early stages especially
[15:34:10] <prospectacle> hi mattie_p
[15:34:28] <mattie_p> coffee is brewing, I'm almost human again
[15:34:35] <prospectacle> caffeine++
[15:34:36] <Bender> karma - caffeine: 3
[15:46:32] <crutchy> hi mattie_p
[15:46:39] <mattie_p> hi crutchy
[15:46:42] <crutchy> shit 1.45am
[15:46:45] <crutchy> time for bed
[15:51:23] <mattie_p> goodnight then, crutchy
[15:51:41] <crutchy> cheers
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[15:51:59] * NCommander licks mattie_p
[15:52:11] <mattie_p> good to see you to, NCommander
[15:52:26] <mattie_p> but that's my wife's job and privilege
[15:52:30] <mattie_p> nograb
[15:52:49] <prospectacle> bye crutchy, good chat
[15:54:22] <mrcoolbp> ug
[15:54:30] * mrcoolbp is waking up
[15:54:39] <mrcoolbp> goodmorning guys
[15:55:08] <NCommander> :-)
[15:55:36] <NCommander> ugh
[15:55:37] <NCommander> alright
[15:55:40] <NCommander> fuck it
[15:55:43] <prospectacle> hi mrcoolbp
[15:55:45] * NCommander setups up krb5
[15:55:54] <mrcoolbp> hey
[15:57:40] <mrcoolbp> wat's up prospectacle?
[15:57:54] <prospectacle> watching true detective
[15:58:12] <prospectacle> it's 154 in the am I should be in bed, but this is a pretty great show.
[15:58:14] <prospectacle> What's up with you?
[15:59:03] <mrcoolbp> just woke up, 11am, recovering, trying to reboot name change
[15:59:14] <NCommander> ldap_bind: Server is unwilling to perform (53)
[15:59:14] <NCommander> additional info: unauthenticated bind (DN with no password) disallowed
[15:59:17] <NCommander> I HATE LDAP
[15:59:35] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: got your email, I don't have an ssh key
[16:00:36] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, do you need shell access to the boxes?
[16:00:43] <mrcoolbp> no
[16:03:34] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, don't worry about it then :-)
[16:03:45] <prospectacle> mrcoolbp, it's starting to seem like the name change is the axis around which the whole meaning of the universe (or at least the site) pivots. If it can be done right, then the future is sunny and bright, and it can serve as a model for future decisions. If not, how can anything ever be done?
[16:04:28] <mrcoolbp> prospectacle: pretty much, and if there's that much stock in it, I'm not sure I should be leading the team that carries it out
[16:05:02] <prospectacle> mrcoolbp, you can do it!
[16:05:20] <mrcoolbp> I can can, but can I do it "right"?
[16:05:24] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, let me review everything before you send anything out
[16:05:34] * NCommander is trying to get our boxes secure as Priority: 1
[16:05:41] <mrcoolbp> NCommander: did you see my *new plan* email?
[16:05:50] <NCommander> mrcoolbp, I did, but didn't look indepth
[16:06:28] <mrcoolbp> well that was our proposal, I wanted to use something like devotee (still do) and no stderr is mad that we had an interim solution
[16:06:40] <mrcoolbp> *now stderr*
[16:07:05] <prospectacle> stderr seemed to be made due to feeling ignored/out of the loop
[16:07:11] <mrcoolbp> he was looking into using devotee, but he feels I sidestepped him (AFAICT)
[16:07:30] <prospectacle> s/made/mad/
[16:07:30] <SedBot> <prospectacle> stderr seemed to be mad due to feeling ignored/out of the loop
[16:08:26] <mrcoolbp> prospectacle: yes, I may have missed something, all I understood is he was "looking into it"
[16:08:55] <mrcoolbp> I had sent an email out asking for help with the name change plan and he didn't respond
[16:08:56] <prospectacle> mrcoolbp, you can do it right, to answer your previous point. Of course you can.
[16:09:14] <prospectacle> mrcoolbp, problem is there's no staff voting system. Without that, it's hard to agree on a site-voting system.
[16:09:23] <mrcoolbp> exactly
[16:09:40] <mrcoolbp> and now I may have pissed of the person that could actually implement one....
[16:09:46] <mrcoolbp> somehow
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[16:11:06] <mrcoolbp> need to go read the logs and see what I missed...
[16:11:13] <prospectacle> all you need is to choose a counting method (anything but single-non-transferrable, or IRV), then have someone write a short script to scrape emails. Once staff can vote clearly and with confidence, other things can be resolved with a clarity and definitiveness.
[16:11:42] <mrcoolbp> we are doing exactly that
[16:11:47] <prospectacle> sounded like audioguy or stderr could do it if asked directly (staff email scraper).
[16:11:55] <prospectacle> ok good i'll butt out. Keep up the good work
[16:11:57] <mrcoolbp> audioguy is doing that
[16:12:03] <mrcoolbp> that's why stderr is mad
[16:12:09] <mrcoolbp> because we didn't wait for him
[16:12:12] <mrcoolbp> = )
[16:12:25] <prospectacle> audioguy is doing for staff votes or site votes (or both?)
[16:12:54] <mrcoolbp> staff vote mostly (interim solution) it may work for site vote too.....
[16:13:01] <mrcoolbp> he'll need to clarify that
[16:13:51] <mrcoolbp> prospectacle: that's actually the problem, stderr was looking into devotee for voting, so in the meantime audioguy stepped up and started coding this scraping system
[16:14:08] <mrcoolbp> now stderr feels his effort was wasted....
[16:14:19] <prospectacle> mrcoolbp, where is it recorded who is supposed to be working on what? so people can look it up when uncertain?
[16:14:29] <mrcoolbp> the wiki
[16:14:54] <mrcoolbp> but I need to send an email to team leaders reminding them that they need to update those pages
[16:15:30] <mrcoolbp> some of the teams have done a lot of work there, other teams haven't expanded as much
[16:15:49] <prospectacle> yeah, easy to see how people could go on wild goose chases if a decision has been made but isn't on the wiki.
[16:16:14] <mrcoolbp> well what's the difference between a "decision" and
[16:16:21] <mrcoolbp> "I'll look into it" ?
[16:17:12] <prospectacle> Must be hard with volunteers.
[16:17:17] <mrcoolbp> very
[16:17:35] <prospectacle> In one sense even that's a decision. In that if it were recorded on the wiki, it would stop someone else "looking into it" if they know it's already being looked into.
[16:19:15] <mrcoolbp> I need a week off from life in order to work on this project, or a week off from this project to work on life, or both
[16:19:16] <prospectacle> currently "todolist" page has three possible options for polling, and no names or statuses assigned to them.
[16:19:26] <mrcoolbp> there ya go
[16:19:29] <prospectacle> lol, yeah, seems like a big time hole
[16:20:19] <mrcoolbp> oh you have no idea, I work 50-60 hrs/wk at my job, 10hrs/wk on my band, and I'm still here every day
[16:20:23] <mrcoolbp> I'm exhausted
[16:20:30] <prospectacle> wow
[16:20:43] <prospectacle> That's incredible
[16:20:52] <mrcoolbp> where are the damn logs for this channel?
[16:21:10] <prospectacle> http://logs.sylnt.us
[16:21:26] <mrcoolbp> yeah I got 4 hrs sleep night before last, worked 10 hrs at my job, here for 6 hours, and 4 hours at band practice
[16:21:37] <mrcoolbp> thanks
[16:21:43] <prospectacle> I wonder if any of the volunteers would have enough time to be the "chief wiki todo keeper", since having all the individuals update their own parts isn't working.
[16:21:50] <prospectacle> And clearly you don't have time.
[16:22:08] <prospectacle> might save a lot of time and heartache if people could see what was actually happening, and where to spend their time.
[16:22:26] <mrcoolbp> (that was just yesterday)
[16:22:35] <prospectacle> I guess everyone has jobs to go to as well.
[16:23:19] <mrcoolbp> It doesn't make sense for one person to constantly ask everyone what they are doing and try to post to the wiki
[16:23:22] <mrcoolbp> I know I tried
[16:23:38] <prospectacle> mrcoolbp, you're right. They'd have to read the irc and staff email logs.
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[16:24:24] <prospectacle> I don't know about the email volume, but the staff log takes about an hour to read each day.
[16:24:36] <prospectacle> s/staff/#staff/
[16:24:37] <SedBot> <prospectacle> I don't know about the email volume, but the #staff log takes about an hour to read each day.
[16:26:32] <mrcoolbp> the emails are volumous
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[16:28:14] <prospectacle> I guess once you have email voting you can just put all vote results on the wiki. Saves reading anything.
[16:28:32] <mrcoolbp> finally found the logs I was looking for
[16:28:48] <prospectacle> nice one
[16:33:27] <mrcoolbp> hmmm
[16:34:29] <mrcoolbp> mattie_p: any luck with team documentation?
[16:34:43] <mrcoolbp> you mentioned looking into that yesterday morning
[16:38:54] * mrcoolbp goes to update the wiki
[16:39:30] n_x6 is now known as n1
[16:39:37] * prospectacle opens fortune cookie: "You will overcome adversity to exceed your wildest dreams"
[16:40:17] <prospectacle> All the best, i'm outta here.
[16:40:28] <mrcoolbp> okay later
[16:41:02] <prospectacle> don't burn yourself out
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[17:10:33] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Worlds First Photonic Radar Tested at Pisa - http://sylnt.us
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[17:17:24] <janrinok> If there is anyone out there with a few minutes to spare - WE NEED SUBMISSIONS please!
[17:26:56] <juggs> hi janrinok - I'll see if I can find something suitable
[17:32:37] <janrinok> thx juggs
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[17:43:56] <NCommander> w00t
[17:43:58] <NCommander> progress
[17:44:34] -!- Subsentient has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[17:45:07] <NCommander> Incredibly sexy is incredibly sexy
[17:49:19] janrinok is now known as janrinok|afk
[17:50:46] <juggs> let me guess you managed to get LDAP to behave itself?
[17:52:05] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Russian Troops Storm Ukrainian Bases in Crimea - http://sylnt.us - NEWS-FLASH
[17:52:27] <juggs> ^^ that's not good :(
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[17:59:19] <NCommander> juggs, http://wiki.soylentnews.org - here's how our permissions look
[17:59:25] * NCommander notes he has it properly auto-enforced
[18:01:41] <NCommander> When it works, its incredibly sexy
[18:01:49] <NCommander> As SSH keys automatically get plucked out of LDAP
[18:09:52] * Popeidol flutters his fan and bats his eyelids
[18:10:00] <Popeidol> sir, please remember there are ladies present
[18:11:01] <Popeidol> I'm not sure we can all handle such raw sexuality
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[18:20:30] <NCommander> Popeidol, there are women on the internet?
[18:20:31] * NCommander ducks
[18:21:03] <Popeidol> apparently not at the moment, or we'd both be in trouble
[18:21:11] <NCommander> :-)
[18:21:45] <Popeidol> though this is publicly logged, so there's plenty of time
[18:22:10] <Popeidol> 'millionaire co-founder of soylentnews a secret misogynist, accused of hiring women just to punch them'
[18:22:38] <Popeidol> 'people close to him early on suggest this was inevitable'
[18:25:56] <n1> lol
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[18:33:52] * NCommander enjoys wiki writing
[18:34:02] <NCommander> After dealing LDAP, almost anything is preferable
[18:37:52] <n1> snwiki or wikipedia?
[18:50:28] <juggs> ooh - that looks neat NCommander :D
[18:51:10] <NCommander> juggs, I'm working writing the idiots guide to LDAP
[18:52:14] <juggs> sounds ideal for me
[18:54:34] * NCommander bangs head repeatively
[18:54:35] <NCommander> root@soylent-db:/etc/ldapscripts# ldapsearch -D cn=admin,dc=li693-22 -y /etc/ldap.secret -H ldaps://ldap-server.li694-22 cn=config
[18:54:35] <NCommander> ldap_bind: Invalid credentials (49)
[18:54:37] <NCommander> ARGHHHHHHHH
[18:54:57] <NCommander> looks like creating the readonly user hosed the RW user
[19:00:56] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - ChipWhisperer - http://sylnt.us - for-good-or-evil-which-will-we-choose
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[19:35:48] <NCommander> http://wiki.soylentnews.org - first crack at documenting the LDAP
[19:35:49] <NCommander> Ugh
[19:40:53] <Bender> [ksuhku] documenting++
[19:40:53] <Bender> [!] karma - documenting: 1
[20:00:37] <NCommander> ksuhku: thanks. I've still got to write everything I know about production's setup, Kerberos: The Missing Manual, The Rise and Fall of New Server Deployment, and Everything You Ever Wanted To Know about SSH ProxyCommand But Was Afraid To Ask
[20:01:30] <Bender> [ksuhku] :D But you'll be a goddamn published author once you have those nailed down!
[20:03:14] <NCommander> ksuhku: I still can't believe how fucking hard openldap is to setup
[20:03:16] <NCommander> Seriously
[20:03:33] <Bender> [ksuhku] I take your word for it
[20:03:46] <NCommander> (or the fact I had to backport openssh to get it to get SSH pubkeys from LDAP. WTF?)
[20:04:03] <Bender> [ksuhku] o_O
[20:04:47] <Bender> [ksuhku] it's good to write docu while the blood is still warm
[20:05:13] <NCommander> No kidding
[20:05:18] <NCommander> Right now, if I get hit by a truck
[20:05:33] <NCommander> There's a fairly good chance allt he documentation goes with me
[20:05:54] <NCommander> I want it so well documented that a Microsoft Certified System Administrator could manage it (with the help of a trained monkey)
[20:06:05] <Bender> [ksuhku] remember to look left, right and then once more left :)
[20:06:31] <NCommander> right, left, right. We drive on the correct side of the street here :-)
[20:06:40] <Bender> [ksuhku] haha
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[20:06:54] <FunPika> There are still people using ##altslashdot on Freenode? O_o
[20:06:55] <Bender> [ksuhku] setting the bar pretty high there!
[20:07:03] <NCommander> I lead by example
[20:07:03] <Bender> [ksuhku] 24 of us
[20:07:21] <Bender> [NCommander] huh
[20:07:26] <Bender> [NCommander] /me isn't relayed
[20:07:34] <Bender> [ksuhku] whoa
[20:07:50] <Bender> [NCommander] FunPika, are you a wikipedia sysadmin O_O;
[20:08:30] <Bender> [ksuhku] a motley crue
[20:08:31] <Bender> [FunPika] no, Wikipedia IRC cloaks just require 250 edits+3 months on Wikipedia
[20:08:34] <Bender> [NCommander] ah
[20:09:10] <Bender> [NCommander] ksuhku, the staff cringes whenever I write something. There's a running joke that the editorial team cringes in fear when I say I'm going to write something
[20:09:24] <Bender> [ksuhku] :D aka the sweet spot!
[20:09:43] <Bender> [ksuhku] that's called being the leader
[20:10:51] <Landon> LDAP :(
[20:11:00] <Landon> I was tasked with setting up LDAP at one of my college jobs..
[20:11:17] <Landon> and this was right in that weird period where the configuration files changed immensely, so I never could find any consistent documentation
[20:11:43] <NCommander> Landon, check out the start of the LDAP docs. Its so easy, even an active directory admin can do it:
[20:12:00] <NCommander> Landon, http://wiki.soylentnews.org
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[20:12:50] <NCommander> I'm going through and adding screenshots
[20:16:08] <Bender> [ksuhku] NCommander, it's great to see you so busy as long as you remember to take a breather every now and then
[20:16:20] <Bender> [NCommander] ksuhku, I can breath when I'm dead :-)
[20:16:23] <Bender> [ksuhku] :)
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[20:20:15] <Bender> [omoc] wow something is happening
[20:20:42] <Bender> [omoc] actual activity in this channel
[20:21:31] <Bender> [FunPika] You're supposed to be in #Soylent on irc.soylentnews.org now, not here. ;)
[20:22:30] <Bender> [juggs] what's wrong with being in two places at once??
[20:22:42] <juggs> :P
[20:22:44] <Bender> [omoc] FunPika: no I'm not supposed to be on some private irc server :P
[20:22:56] <Bender> [omoc] I'm fine with freenode
[20:25:11] <Bender> [FunPika] And this is probably why there was so much support in that poll for us to go back to Freenode. :P Except I think that got swept to the side because Slash's polling system needs work.
[20:26:47] <Bender> [FunPika] http://soylentnews.org Freenode is actually ahead by 10 votes. However " If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."
[20:27:12] <Bender> [ksuhku] "We all need to be on the soylent irc server so we can show the interested buyers how big an audience... oh what!"
[20:27:23] <Bender> [omoc] FunPika: in the first days of the vote the private server was only 50% of freenode
[20:27:33] <Bender> [omoc] then it suddenly spiked to almost equal
[20:27:53] <Bender> [FunPika] I think that is what really threw Slash's polling code under suspicion.
[20:29:35] * NCommander makes more headway
[20:32:44] <Bender> [omoc] there is also #slashdot-refugees btw, but user numbers dropped there even lower than here
[20:33:26] * pbnjoe cheers NCommander on
[20:48:46] <NCommander> pbnjoe, thanks
[20:48:55] <pbnjoe> :)
[20:50:19] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - Net Neutrality: AT&T versus Netflix - http://sylnt.us - this-will-run-and-run
[20:53:01] <Tachyon> wut?
[20:53:08] <Tachyon> we are moving back to freenode?
[20:56:00] <Bender> [stderr_dk] Some are...
[20:56:08] <stderr> Some are not...
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[21:13:41] * FunPika just noticed that the relay doesn't send anything said with /me to the other channel
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[21:19:34] <NCommander> LDAP for DUmmies is done
[21:19:42] <NCommander> http://wiki.soylentnews.org - thoughts welcome
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[21:53:22] <Landon> hah
[21:53:29] <Landon> there's a big file in my Dead Space 3 directory
[21:53:31] <Landon> what's it called?
[21:53:33] <Landon> bigfile2
[21:53:36] <Landon> naming things is hard
[21:55:08] <IT_phreak> where's Khyber?
[21:55:43] <FoobarBazbot> !quote SoyCow4570
[21:55:43] <Bender> Quote 38 - <SoyCow4570> guys, don't mess with khyber, he'll send exploited eastern european womens to unplug your internet cables
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[21:56:12] <IT_phreak> you mean he'll hook me up wit all of em- CRAZY haha
[21:56:31] <Landon> !quote khyber
[21:56:31] <Bender> Quote 38 - <SoyCow4570> guys, don't mess with khyber, he'll send exploited eastern european womens to unplug your internet cables
[21:56:33] <IT_phreak> or what's his other name, Kitsune
[21:56:34] <Landon> only one?
[21:56:50] <FoobarBazbot> !quote Khyber
[21:56:50] <Bender> Quote 14 - <Khyber> backed by physical asses, more like it.
[21:57:13] <IT_phreak> i got some hard-ware, u want some?
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[22:20:27] <Bender> [SoylentNews] - #JennyAsks Ridiculed for Anti-Vaccine Views - http://sylnt.us - the-upside-and-downside-of-social-media
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[23:22:13] * pbnjoe sighs wrt to the whole anti-vaccine deal
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[23:29:54] <n1> i agree pbnjoe
[23:31:44] <n1> skepticism has its place with vaccines, but thats no reason to just make shit up and endanger lives, especially of children
[23:32:03] <pbnjoe> exactly; and not even just the children you have direct influence over either
[23:32:07] <pbnjoe> it affects everyone
[23:32:38] <n1> the part about BC is pretty scary
[23:32:44] <n1> such a dramatic shift
[23:32:55] <pbnjoe> were they celebrating it or something? just skimmed
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[23:33:13] <pbnjoe> like, "hooray! measles!" :S
[23:33:35] <n1> i'm not sure, i didn't RTFA
[23:33:41] <n1> i think that was the submitters take on it
[23:33:43] <pbnjoe> neither did I heh
[23:33:44] <pbnjoe> ah
[23:34:28] <n1> i'm checking the sources now
[23:36:15] <n1> doesnt seem to be anything about the cheering in the links
[23:36:58] <n1> i'd never heard of the woman before
[23:37:06] <n1> why is she a supposed authority on these matters?
[23:37:23] <Bender> [ksuhku] big boobs
[23:38:31] <n1> clearly she's a smart cookie "The Sun moves into Aries today and thanks to @Mauichef we know what to expect "
[23:38:40] <n1> was a tweet from her a couple days ago
[23:39:44] <n1> her twitter account decsription or what ever it is "Proud mama, co-host of The View, loyal BH sister & author of my 9th book 'stirring the pot.' Don't be an ass, order one now:"
[23:40:22] <xlefay> rofl
[23:41:12] <n1> the amazon summary of the latest book concludes with; "here are outrageous musings from the roller coaster life of everyone’s favorite professional blonde."
[23:41:17] <n1> WHAT THE FUCK
[23:49:28] <xlefay> bacon++
[23:49:28] <Bender> karma - bacon: 180
[23:49:35] <xlefay> poutine--
[23:49:35] <Bender> karma - poutine: -323